Episode 23: Try a Prescription-Strength App—Talking digital therapeutics with Dr. Nayan Kalnad of Avegen

Justin Steinman:
Definitively Speaking is a Definitive Healthcare podcast series recorded and produced in Framingham, Massachusetts. To learn more about healthcare commercial intelligence, please visit us at definitivehc.com.
Hello and welcome to Definitively Speaking, the podcast where we have data-driven conversations on the current state of healthcare. I'm Justin Steinman, chief marketing officer at Definitive Healthcare and your host for this podcast. Okay, this is just in. Drug development is expensive and fraught with risk. Wait, wait, don't go anywhere. I know this is an exactly revolutionary insight, but just because it isn't revolutionary doesn't make it any less real or important. The holy grail of drug development is to make it faster, cheaper, and less risky, all while maintaining the highest standard of patient safety. But, what if I told you there was another way? My guest today, Dr. Nayan Kalnad, has just that. It's called digital therapeutics.
"What's a digital therapeutic," you might be asking yourself. Well, essentially, it's an alternative to using a drug, or a digital therapeutic can be delivered alongside a drug to make it more effective. Either way, it helps improve patient care and lowers cost. Exactly what we're looking for in healthcare today. A trained doctor, Nayan spent years working in product development at Johnson and Johnson, all the time wondering if there was just a better way to do it. So, he took the entrepreneurial leap and started Avegen Health to help bend the cost curve in value-based care by building a platform for digital therapeutics or DTx for short.
According to their website, Avegen builds transformative digital health products that empower patients to take control of their health. HealthMachine is Avegen's cloud-based, condition-agnostic product development platform for launching evidence-based, scalable and secure digital health products. Nayan is based in London at Avegen's headquarters, but he joins me today from his company's development offices in Pune, India. Cool, 10 and a half hours ahead of me. It's 8:00 AM here and 6:30 PM there. So, Nayan, good evening. Welcome to Definitively Speaking. We're happy to have you here and I appreciate you taking time out of your dinner hour while I have my first cup of coffee of the day.

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Hello, Justin. Thank you for having me on the show and, I guess, in this global world. We span the world, right?

Justin Steinman:
Absolutely.

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Looking forward to our conversation.

Justin Steinman:
That's great. Great. Let's start by following up something I mentioned in the introduction. You left a safe, secure job at J and J to go boost jump a startup. Why? I mean, you could've gone and been a private practice as a doctor. You could've stayed to J and J instead of this monumental risk. What made you so passionate about this problem that you were literally willing to risk your career and make the leap?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Excellent question and it's something that I always wonder about. And I think being a physician, you go into medicine because you want to support patients. You want to help patients lead healthier and more fulfilling lives. And for me, I think the aha moment was I was working on developing drugs and I used to speak to a lot of specialist consultants and especially in HIV, because that was the work that I was doing at that time. And a lot of them would tell me that, "Nayan, it's not that sometimes we need more new drugs. What we need is a way for us to support our patients." And so, I asked, "What do you mean?" And they said, sometimes, we see 200 patients a day, and a lot of the patients that come to us, they probably might not need to come to us, but they come because they're sometimes not aware of what to do with a particular disease or with a particular symptom that they're facing.
So if there is a way for us to educate them on how to live better with the disease, provide them support closer to where they live, that will be extremely beneficial. Not just for these patients have better quality of life, but also for us, because then we can actually focus our time and effort on the patients who really need our support. At that time, I was working in drug development and then I ended up speaking to a colleague of mine who works in digital technology, and he said, "Hey, look, why don't we solve this using technology because technology created this?"
So, we actually developed our first "digital therapeutic" using interactive voice response system. It was fairly successful. But then, what we realized is that if I have to truly do this and fulfill the promise, I needed to do it in a smaller setup because large companies are great at scaling innovations but sometimes not necessarily at the early stage of innovation, especially for something that was not the norm at that time. So, that's what sort of pushed me to say, "Hey, if I truly believe that digital technology can increase access to good quality care globally, I had to take the leap." And it's been eight years and I don't think I've regretted one moment at all about taking that leap.

Justin Steinman:
So, eight years, that means you left there in 2015. Is that right?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Yes, that's right. Yeah.

Justin Steinman:
And did you try to do this in J and J and they're like, "No, thank you. Go figure it out yourself?"

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
No, in fact, I actually started this journey in J and J. We did it for four or five years, along with a few other colleagues, and we had good success. But, Johnson & Johnson is a healthcare product company. They know how to do devices really well, they know how to do drugs really well, but digital was something very novel at that time. So, we needed to be in a smaller setting to experiment, to iterate, understand what works and what doesn't work. But, a lot of the thinking that we do and the process that we follow is based on my experience at a company like Johnson & Johnson which does drug development really, really well.

Justin Steinman:
Got it. You've been at this for eight years. How's it going?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
It has its ups and downs. Entrepreneurship is never a straight line. The successes, I think, sometimes make up for some of the disappointments. We've had our learning moments, we've had our pivots, but in the last I would say two to three years, I think we seem to have hit accrue. And today we have around 14 different digital health products ranging all the way from products for mental health, so treating depression, paranoia, to also supporting patients who have HIV or tuberculosis. And across these products, we have more than 1.3 million downloads, around 900,000 registered users. More than 20% of them are active monthly. We work with some of the leading pharmaceutical companies in the world. So, I would say that it's been a challenging, enriching, but overall a very satisfying eight years.

Justin Steinman:
This is good, you started to get a little bit into what this is. I mentioned in my intro, but can you define, I'm sure you can do this better than I can. What is a digital therapeutic? Can you define that for our listeners?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Happy to. As a physician, when I have a patient in front of me and I decide to prescribe to the patient, today, my option is I generally prescribe a drug, a chemical entity that they either inject or that they swallow, and it changes physiological mechanisms in the body and therefore prevents a disease or treats a disease. But, we also know that a lot of long-term conditions that humans have, so for example, diabetes, can also be influenced by behavior. For example, you can actually control diabetes by changing your nutritional habits or by increasing your physical activity.
Now, in the past as a physician, what I would tell them is, "Why don't you lose weight," or "Why don't you change your diet? Have a Mediterranean diet." But, for a user, how do I actually implement this? What does that mean? And so, what we are now able to do using software is actually educate the patient about, "Hey, this is the diet that you should be taking." Potentially monitor their glucose and give them recommendations on, "You're doing well," or "These are the food material that you can avoid." In a sense, you can achieve the same clinical outcomes that you would with the pill using software. And that is what fundamentally digital therapeutics are.
These are essentially software products which are a new modality of treatment paradigm. And either they could be prescribed independently or most often it gets prescribed along with the pill so that overall the effectiveness is much, much more.

Justin Steinman:
And so, is this something like it live on my iPhone and then I'd have an external glucose monitor that kind of feeds data into my iPhone?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
It could be a mobile application on your iPhone. It could even be a chatbot on your Instant Messenger. It could be augmented reality software which changes your interpretation of the world. These are software products that can stay on your phone, on your Instant Messenger, on your virtual reality handset in the future.

Justin Steinman:
So, we're going to let the metaverse here?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Possibly. Possibly. I mean, why not, right? Why not? Let's take the example of paranoia. In paranoia, the way you look at a situation and the way a patient with paranoia looks at a situation might be completely different. Now, if you put them in a metaverse where you expose them to different sort of stimulus, the way they interpret that situation probably normalizes. In maybe five, 10 years, maybe not that far, you'll actually have products which sit in the metaverse where you go and say, "Okay, this is where I'm going to deal with my anxiety." Very possible.

Justin Steinman:
Got it. Let's make a note for my producer that we got to get Mark Zuckerberg on this podcast in the next episode or two. How big is the market for digital therapeutics?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
The forecast is that it is in the hundreds of billions. What you see is that companies, there are other companies, especially in the US, who have also got regulatory approval for these products. We have products for treating opioid addiction, we have products for treating insomnia, we have products for treating obesity. The regulators are actually paying much more attention to this modality of treatment, and we have a lot of products coming into the market. In Germany, the regulator there has approved close to I think 35 digital therapeutics for various indications. And the forecast is that this might be as big as what today the market for drugs is.

Justin Steinman:
Really? As big as drugs? That's like a billions and billions and trillions of dollars of revenue.

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Exactly. I mean, that's the hope, that this becomes part of our treatment practice. It's not a known thing when you go to a doctor, the doctor actually says, "I want you to take this drug and I'm also prescribing this digital therapeutic to you."

Justin Steinman:
Got it. It's really a whole different paradigm. And how do you get physicians educated on this and get them to realize that they've got to prescribe both the drug and the digital therapeutic or just the therapeutic without the drug? This is a new concept. How do you get physicians on board?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
I think with any novel technology, it follows essentially the same curve. What's happened is that there are a lot of physicians who have realized that digital therapeutics could be a new modality of treatment, and these are the early adopters. And what we've also seen is that some of them also have ideas on how or what could be a digital therapeutic. And one of the ways that we are trying to help this space is by making it a lot more easier to develop safe and high quality digital products. And these physicians who are the early pioneers, they are educating their colleagues and their peers on what digital therapeutics could be doing. That's one.
And the second one is the insurance providers. The payers are now starting to incorporate digital therapeutics into their formularies. And there are value-based payments being put in place. There are risk-based contracts being put in place where the payer is actually encouraging their prescribers to prescribe digital therapeutics. I think it's early days, but I have been in this sector since 2008 and I would say in the last three, four years, we have seen a significant uptake and understanding amongst healthcare providers on how digital products can actually be used for supporting and treating patients.

Justin Steinman:
Got it. Got it. So, you're a real pioneer in this space, huh?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
I hope so.

Justin Steinman:
But, you're also a startup, so you got less than a hundred people working for you probably, right? You're a small company.

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Yes.

Justin Steinman:
So, that means you're probably a very small sales force. And in this multibillion, trillion-dollar market, who are you selling to? You can't be covering physicians. Are you going to the payers? Are you going to the health systems? Are you going to the drug manufacturers? Who are you talking to?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Excellent question. And you're absolutely right. I think for a small company like ours, we cannot invest in having a team that just focuses on market access and getting prescription. We have taken a slightly different approach. What we have done is that our partners are generally big pharmaceutical companies who actually have figured out this part of the value chain. They know how to increase awareness, they know how to get the physicians to endorse these products and prescribe the products. But, their challenge has been how do you actually develop these products. Because, if it is going to take two years to develop the product, it becomes very expensive, then they are not as interested. So, what we have done with our pharmaceutical partners is that we manufacture the digital health product while they are essentially responsible for the marketing of these digital health products. It is a very symbiotic relationship. We do what we are really good at, which is build digital health products and validate it and improve it over time, and they do what they're really good at, which is actually promote these digital health products to the prescribers.

Justin Steinman:
Got it. So, you're almost like a backend product development platform. Right?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Exactly. We are a backend product development platform who understands how to build these products and make sure that the users actually use these products. Yes, absolutely.

Justin Steinman:
Got it. Let's actually go down to brass tacks here and walk our listeners through how this works. So, pick one of your companies, you can keep them blinded, I don't want to, unless you want to talk about them publicly, and tell us what the condition they came to you with, where the gap in the digital therapeutic was, and what you are actually doing for them, and then some of the results that the customers have had. Almost like a mini case study, if you will.

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Sure. Absolutely. One of the companies that came to us, they were actually quite interested in a very rare indication. I think in all of Europe, there are probably 8000 patients with this particular rare disease. And the gap that they identified in the patient care is that most patients would end up staying on the first line treatment. I think more than 70% of the patients would stay on first line treatment, and the patients would never move to second line because risk stratification was not being done on a regular basis. And the clinician would ask the patient, "Hey, how are you feeling?" The patient says, "I'm fine," and that's where the story would end. So when the pharmaceutical company looked at the space, they said, "How can we make sure that the patients actually get risk stratified objectively a lot more frequently?" Because, we know that if the patient actually gets onto the second line drug, then their lifespan actually increases.
They came to us with that sort of problem statement. "How can we solve this? Can we solve this using a digital health product?" So, what we did is we actually conceptualized the product, who's intended aim is to get the patient to track their vitals a lot more frequently and share these vitals with the clinician. And the expectation is that then the clinician will know, "Is this patient worsening? And if this patient is worsening, then I need to get more formal sort of risk stratification done. And then if indicated, then put the patient on the second line medication or the third line medication."
Five percent of the patients who have this indication in Europe are using this product. We have had more than 2000 reports that have been shared with the physician, and we estimate that most of them would then led to a more clinically-oriented risk stratification. We are yet to see if there has been an impact in the long-term outcomes for the patient. But, we feel fairly confident that given the historical sort of research that the company had done, there is a very high chance that it has led to actually better outcomes for the patient, which is actually increased lifespan.

Justin Steinman:
Got it. And this is a prescribed drug, so administer that prescription?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

Justin Steinman:
I also think from talking to you, you work with over-the-counter, right? OTC?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Yeah.

Justin Steinman:
What's the difference? How do you get an OTC drug... I walk to my local CVS, I can buy a drug, I'm not necessarily getting additional therapeutic with it. How does that work?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
And I think OTC, actually, there is a lot more opportunity. Because, if you look at an OTC company, these are drugs which have been there for a very long time, they're already considered safe. For example, we are working with a company which has a drug for diarrhea. And now, when you speak to the patients, what the patients are actually saying is that, "I want to understand what triggers my diarrhea." And now, what we have done with that company is actually build a product where the patient actually enters the food that they take on an ongoing basis and also the events, the diarrheal events, and then using a model, we are actually able to correlate and then suggests to the patient that, "Hey, these are the foods that are triggering." "These are the foods that you should avoid." "These are the foods that you can have as much of, and these are the foods that we are still undecided about."
Now, you give that sort of insight to the patient. But at the same time, if the patient realizes that, "These are the times when I should be taking a medication," then the company that we work for is obviously that would benefit. So in that instance, they have taken a fairly mature medication at on a product or a service to the medication, and now they're giving a much more comprehensive solution to the patient. That's an example of what we can do for the OTC manufacturers.

Justin Steinman:
And is this on the back of the box, like go to the website and enter the information? How do I access this?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
That's how it'll most likely end up being. So, either you go to their website and you can just scan a QR code and download the app, or it'll be on the box itself.

Justin Steinman:
This is fascinating. This is fascinating. Let's shift to another kind of area. A key area for a key question for pharmaceutical companies is off patent growth, right?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Right.

Justin Steinman:
The big sweet spot obviously for any pharmaceutical companies, you've got FDA-approved and you've got the patent. There's your commercial advantage. You've almost got exclusivity.

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Right.

Justin Steinman:
But then, the time comes and it's inevitable when you're off-patent and generics enter the market. You still got revenue targets you've got to hit, right?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Yeah.

Justin Steinman:
So, I guess my question to you is where can growth come after you're off-patent but still a prescribed drug?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Actually, a lot of times our focus area, we focus a lot on that space. Because if you look at most generics, it just becomes a commodity sort of play, right? It's like the lowest cost wins. Now, that could work for pure play generic companies, but there's a tier of companies who want to ensure that they have price premium. Now, how do they actually get that price premium? What we have seen is that when we speak to our counterparts in these pharmaceutical companies, what they're looking for is differentiation, present like front of mind for the prescribers. And when they speak to these physicians, what they say is that, "Hey, can you help me reduce my total cost of care?" And that could be by being a more complete solutions' provider.
So rather than just looking at the uptake of the medicine, can you actually help me educate the patient about the side effects with this drug? Because, sometimes, patients stop taking a drug because they have side effects, but if they just stick with, it actually works. So, what a lot of these companies are doing is going beyond the pill and then supporting the payers or the healthcare providers in providing them a much more comprehensive solution, which essentially bends the cost of. They can still charge a premium and not just be the cheapest drug on the market and maintain that price differential, which otherwise would not exist.

Justin Steinman:
Got it. You've hit again a number of topics there that I kind of want to dig a little bit more into it. And I guess you've talked about value-based care and healthcare delivery models, and a big theme of this podcast, and I talked with a lot of my different guests, is the current method of healthcare delivery. And is it sustainable and how do we live with this in this world? I feel like we are always at an inflection point in healthcare, but I feel like even now coming out of COVID, we have more of an inflection point. So, my question to you as a doctor and a digital therapeutics expert, and we'll call you a digital therapeutics expert, I can make that call right here. Is the current model of healthcare delivery sustainable?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
In short, no. there's no way. We already see countries, and you obviously are in the US, you've seen it firsthand. I live in UK, and we see countries which are already spending a significant proportion of their GDP on healthcare. I think UK spends close to 12%. And right now, we are going through a situation where we have healthcare workers striking because the government is refusing to give them above inflation pay rises. Now, the reason the government is not doing it is because there's no money in the bank to pay this.
If we continue with the current model as the population ages, this way of doing healthcare is just completely unsustainable. And that's where I think we have that opportunity for technology, because if you look at every other sector, technology's actually brought down the unit cost of delivery except in healthcare for the longest time. And I think that's the opportunity that in that we have that can be actually, like other sectors, use technology to not compromise on the quality of care a person receives, actually give them better quality of care but at a lower better cost. That's the only way I think we can go ahead. We have to.

Justin Steinman:
You made an interesting comment there. You said technology has lowered the cost in every industry but healthcare. I actually agree with that statement.

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Yeah.

Justin Steinman:
But, I've also been working in healthcare technology for 20 years and I feel like I've been saying that I spent seven or eight years selling EMR software back Obamacare. "Meaningful Use." Everyone I meet has PTSD for "Meaningful Use." But, we've been trying to implement technology in healthcare now for 20 plus years and yet, you're right, we still haven't bent the cost curve. So, what's so different? What are we doing wrong? How do we fix it? It doesn't make sense.

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Two, three years back, there was a point of time when I had become cynical. I'm like, "This is not going to happen. It's been a decade, I'm at this." And every place that I go, it's like, "Oh, technology, we don't want it. It's not going to work." I think the big game changer was COVID. COVID just changed the dynamic. Before COVID, I and a lot of my other colleagues who work in digital would go and pitch digital solutions to either healthcare providers or payers. We had to convince them about why this is even relevant.
COVID actually made us look at alternative ways of delivering care. For example, we have a deployment in London with the largest HIV center where prior to COVID, we were doing a pilot with hundred patients. When COVID hit, because we were already in the hospital, they said, "Hey, can we use your technology to triage the patients without them having to come to the clinic? We only bring patients to the clinic who really, really need to come to the clinic." And overnight, they used the technology to do the clinical triage. Only the patients who needed to come came in and the rest were still supported at their homes. And today, they have around 8000 patients on their list. More than 5000 patients are being managed using the digital health solution that we put in place.
So today, I think what's happening is that COVID made people see the possibilities with using technology. In this particular clinic now, they're able to give good quality of care. The waiting time has gone down from more than six months to less than eight weeks. And so, clearly they've improved the outcome, the quality, and they've not added on another 20 staff to get to that reduction in the waiting time. I guess there are always silver lining setting. The one good thing, if at all, that came out of the pandemic was just an acceptance that we, as society, we have to leverage digital products, and that's the only way to go. And we actually grew during COVID by two times because it just changed the dynamic. I mean, everybody was like, "Okay, we want to do this. Can we do it quickly? Can we deploy it?" So rather than why, they started speaking about how, and that I think is the big change.

Justin Steinman:
Yeah. And so, the question coming out of COVID is whether that change will stick. I agree with you. COVID changed a lot of things. I think some cases like webcams. Before COVID, when I was on a conference call that was still audio and I wouldn't care about everybody. And now, post COVID, everybody has webcam. All of our conference calls are in-person, again, looking into a camera. We've all become very comfortable with that. I think that change will stay. On the flip side, you hear about all the home goods retailers and the people who, "We're all locked at home," and they've refurnished their home, and now we're out of our homes and home furnishing companies are all falling off a cliff, laying off people, stock price going down, whatever. What gives you confidence that this technology adoption from COVID is going to stick in healthcare and that we're not going to revert back?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
I think we'll know a definite of answer maybe in a year or so. But, what gives me the confidence is my experience before COVID. One of the key challenges when we would implement digital solutions is that it would never get integrated into routine care. It was always considered a novelty. It's like, "oh, we are trying this out. It might work, it might not work, but this is not how we work." What happened during COVID, I think these digital products became the way they did their work. For example, this clinic now, the standard of care is that the patient actually gets a push notification saying that, "Hey, we want to check on how you are doing. Can you please complete this pre-visit questionnaire and then we will get back to you and ask you if you need to come into the hospital or not."
That's their standard practice. And that I don't think they will not go back to a situation where it is not their standard practice. That's what gives me the confidence that the change in the pathway that we were desperate for actually before COVID, COVID actually catalyzed it. And it's very hard for them to now go back and say that, "Oh, you know what? We will not use this." The same nutshell that stopped us with the uptake is going to be the same thing that will make sure that digital actually stays as part of the way care is being delivered.

Justin Steinman:
Well, I selfishly hope that you are right, but time will tell. I can't wait to see. Last big question before I let you go today. Avegen is a digital therapeutic platform company. I think we got that. I've learned a lot about digital therapeutics today so thank you for teaching me. But, I honestly feel like there are a million digital health care companies out there today. I feel like every VC, venture capitalist, has a dozen or more in his/her portfolio, and then you got big pharma building their own as well. Are we reaching a point of saturation or even oversaturation with all these digital health tools?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
In short, yes, but I think that is what the sector needs, because at the end of the day, it is going to be survival of the fittest. And if we have more experimentation, more people trying to use these products to deliver value-based healthcare, we will have a few winners. And for us as a company, I think that's what we are trying to do. In healthcare, it should be relatively easier, relatively cost-efficient to bring these products to the market. We have to validate it in patients. And the best of the lot should flourish, should scale, rather than limiting that innovation only to the companies with deep pockets.
What we're trying to do is actually democratize the building of these digital health products. Because if you go back into history in drug, it was much easier to bring a drug to the market probably 30 years back, 30, 40 years back. And obviously, it's the good ones that have stood the test of time. And I think that's what we are seeing in digital today. We have a lot of products in the market, which is excellent because all of us are trying different ways of solving the same problem. Some of them will benefit the patients, will bend the cost curve, and I think those are the ones that we want overall as a society to succeed.

Justin Steinman:
But as a patient, we're going to have to figure out how to manage that for them. Because, look, I take a bunch of pills every night and I'm brushing my teeth, I throw a bunch of pills, swallow, and it's like five seconds out of my day. But if I'm on seven digital therapeutics, I don't want to be spending all my day punch, punch, punch, punch, okay, that one's done. Punch, punch, punch, punch, that one's done. So, how do we make this better for the patient so that their user experience, because ultimately that's what's going to drive adoption, right?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Yeah.

Justin Steinman:
How do we make this better for the patient?

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
In two ways, I think, one is that's where the regulators come in, right? Because, what they're trying to do is make sure that... When I started in 2008, there was so many not so serious digital health product manufacturers. They just put something in them out in the world and see what sticks and what doesn't stick. And I think what regulators are bringing in as principles that companies like us and others need to manage, so the quality of the product is good and most importantly it is safe. That's the first thing.
And the second one is I think really focusing on user experience, and that is where integration comes in. For example, we have a module where we don't need the patient to do double entry of the data. We integrate with the mobile product that they're already using or mobile application that they're already using. We pull the information that is required for the function of our product.
I think the key will be focused on the patient's experience, make sure that it is safe for the patient, and then what will happen is that the patient will also select the ones that actually work for them. For example, we have a product for pregnant mothers, which is I think one of the top 10 apps that get downloaded in India. And when we speak to the end users, they say, "We compared a few, we compared like three, four, and we preferred what you have and that's where we have stuck with you." So, as long as I think we focus on the fact that the product is safe and it makes for a good user experience, I think those are the products that will stand the test of time.

Justin Steinman:
Got it. Well, I appreciate and admire your entrepreneurial passion. I can't wait to see where this is going to go with digital therapeutics.

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Thanks a lot, Justin. Hopefully, we'll make a dent in society.

Justin Steinman:
Awesome. I really appreciate you coming on the show. This has been a great conversation. Thank you.

Dr. Nayan Kalnad:
Thank you.

Justin Steinman:
And for our listeners out there, thank you as always for listening to Definitively Speaking, a Definitive Healthcare podcast. Please join me next time for a conversation with Rachel Schiff from IntelyCare, a healthcare workforce management platform. IntelyCare uses AI to match healthcare facilities with nursing professionals in an on-demand environment. Rachel and I will cover the current state of the hospital workforce and how things may change and evolve during 2023. I certainly hope you'll join us for that conversation.
If you like what you've heard today, please remember to rate, review, and subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. To learn more about how healthcare commercial intelligence can support your business, please follow us on Twitter @DefinitiveHC or visit us at definitivehc.com. Until next time, take care, stay healthy, and I'll see you in the metaverse.