Episode 38: Is there a blueprint for innovation? Exploring startup success and failure with Lesley Solomon of Redesign Health

Justin Steinman:
Definitively Speaking is a Definitive Healthcare Podcast series, recorded and produced in Framingham, Massachusetts. To learn more about Healthcare commercial intelligence, please visit us at definitivehc.com.
Hello and welcome to another episode of Definitively Speaking, the Podcast where we have data-driven conversations on the current state of Healthcare. I'm Justin Steinman, Chief Marketing Officer at Definitive Healthcare, and your host for this Podcast. Necessity is the mother of invention. It's a common proverb. In fact, its earliest recorded instance was an Aesop's Fables, The Crow & the Pitcher, from mid-6th century BCE. But it's common because it's true. Without invention, and its close cousin innovation, our society would come to a literal standstill. An article in the Insider website, way back in 2012, said it best, "Invention is the creation of a product or introduction of a process, for the first time. Thomas Edison was an inventor. Innovation happens when someone improves on or makes a significant contribution to something that has already been invented. Steve Jobs is an innovator." Thanks, Insider.
But whether you're an inventor, an innovator, or just someone who benefits from these new creations, you've probably wondered where all these ideas come from and how in the world do they get commercialized. That's why I'm so excited to welcome Lesley Solomon to today's episode of Definitively Speaking. Lesley's a Venture Chair at Redesign Health. Her job is to literally create new Healthcare companies that address the most pressing problems in the US Healthcare system. I love the aspirational nature of Redesign Health's website, so I'm going to quote them here, because I don't think I could do it justice by trying to put it in my own words. "Redesign Health is powering a new kind of innovation in Healthcare. We ideate, build and scale solutions to solve the biggest health challenges that rapidly advanced human health. Our model is unlike anything else out there. We are not a venture capital firm, incubator or accelerator. Instead, we ideate, build and scale companies, based on our research relationships and diligence."
I'll ask Lesley to drill down and expand on that definition in just a few moments, so stick with me. Before she joined Redesign Health, Lesley had an equally cool job, where she was the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute's first SVP and Chief Innovation Officer. At Dana-Farber, Lesley let a team focus on commercializing Dana-Farber's science and technology and working with industry, academic and investment partners to accelerate the pace of getting the work to patients. She focused on developing innovative models or partnerships to sustain the institute's research funding and created new ways to expand the reach of Dana-Farber's clinical care. Previously, she served as the executive director of Brigham and Women's Hospital's Digital Innovation Hub, and as Director of Strategy Innovation at the Brigham Research Institute. So you might say Lesley has just a bit of experience with Healthcare innovation. Lesley, welcome to Definitively Speaking. We're so happy to have you here.

Lesley Solomon:
Thanks for having me, Justin.

Justin Steinman:
All right, let's get started. That was quite a long introduction, but it was really... I wanted to give people a feeling of what Redesign Health is. But I shared the website language, could you expand on it? What is Redesign Health?

Lesley Solomon:
Absolutely. We are a team of over 200 people, that build, launch, and grow companies, tackling some of health care's biggest challenges. We generate new business ideas, like you said. We work with exceptional founders, so bring on CEOs and founding teams and partners, to bring those businesses to market. We accelerate each company's growth, through both internal tools and technologies. We've launched over 50 companies, since 2018. Because of that, we have an innate understanding of what's required to quickly build and scale successful Healthcare businesses and creating a more connected, accessible experience for everyone.

Justin Steinman:
All right, so there's a lot there. We're going to dig into some of that stuff. I'll start with the most interesting thing you said there. What's an innate understanding, right? That's an interesting way of putting it.

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, I mean, it's in our DNA, right? We've now built so many companies, in such a short time, and in really interesting markets, that we have a really good sense of what's going to work, what's not going to work, and what we need to do to make it work.

Justin Steinman:
All right, so let's spill the company's secret. What's going to work and what's not going to work in Healthcare?

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, I don't think that's the company secret. If we had that, we'd be doing even more now. But there's a lot of different pieces that go into it and, obviously, as you know, you need to have a real market need, a real patient need, provider need. So, what is the opportunity? What is missing? What is the white space that needs to be filled? Why can we do it better than others who have maybe tried?

Justin Steinman:
How did Redesign get started?

Lesley Solomon:
Brett Shaheen is our CEO and he started it in 2018. He was a hedge fund investor and had decided that he wanted to start up a company in Healthcare. So with some friends, started up a company. I believe it was Candid, the competitor to Invisalign. I think what they realized and what Brett realized was how hard Healthcare was and also how hard it is to start up a company. He learned that so many companies, I think it was 80% of companies, in Healthcare startups never make it to their Series A, which he thought was ridiculous and should be able to be addressed. So he built Redesign with that goal of having more startups, more of these innovation and innovative companies, in Healthcare make it to their Series A, because once you've made it to Series A, you have more of a likelihood of success and scaling.

Justin Steinman:
So, when you say Redesign started 50 companies, did all 50 of them get to their Series A?

Lesley Solomon:
So, no, because one of them was launched last week and that would be super crazy fast. I'm going to guess right now, I think about nine companies have made it to their Series A. We started, like I said, in 2018, and we've slowly increased the number of companies that we launch every year. So there's one or two that have raised a Series B. There's a bunch that have raised a Series A. There's many that have raised seed II round, and obviously a lot of them that are still not at seed stage.

Justin Steinman:
Got it. So you're almost at that 20%, then, if you got nine or ten, out of 50, you're going right with that industry interesting. So what's a venture chair? I'd never heard of that job title, before I heard you got it.

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, it's a really cool title. I have Kira Wampler to thank for it. She is my boss, the head of startup success at Redesign, but she was the first venture chair. She created the title. She created the job. Basically, what venture chairs do is help through each stage that a concept goes through at Redesign. A venture chair gets involved, at every stage of the concept. Once there's an idea, a concept with a business model, with some diligence, with some research, a venture chair, and we have 11 of them at Redesign, including myself, have decades of experience, and we'll provide more hands-on, strategic and operational guidance. Again, all the way from idea through to exit, as well as anything in between. So I'll spend a lot of my time... Right now, I'm working on an early-stage concept, where we're meeting with experts, we're exploring some early partnerships. This is a concept that hasn't been funded yet.
So I now, as a venture chair, am getting involved in looking at all the different pieces that we need to get it approved for funding. Then, once it gets approved, hopefully, but as we get closer to getting approved, I will then lead the effort in partnership with someone on my talent team to hire a CEO. The goal is, once the CEO is in seat, I move into a board role. Once I'm in that board role, I partner with the CEO as a advisor and board member, a glorified board member, to help them get what they need, either from Redesign, the market, from my knowledge, from my contacts, and support them as a partner as they grow their company.

Justin Steinman:
So you're almost like a shepherd, you shepherd the company along.

Lesley Solomon:
I totally agree. That's what I called myself in the early days here, I said, "I am a shepherd."

Justin Steinman:
Excellent. As long as you're not calling your company sheep, because there's a whole other thing that we'd have problems with, but, yeah.

Lesley Solomon:
No, definitely not.

Justin Steinman:
I gotcha. So how in the world does someone become a venture chair?

Lesley Solomon:
Well, there has to be an open spot to be a venture chair. Are you throwing your hat in the ring?

Justin Steinman:
No, not right now. I'm very happy here at DH, especially if my boss is listening, I love my job, yes.

Lesley Solomon:
Kidding. No, so as long as there's a spot open, which there aren't any right now, you interview. I think the main thing that we look for is someone who has had successes and failures and have learned from those successes and failures, and have been part of a startup ecosystem. So, as an example, I had been at least four or five startup, before I joined Redesign Health. That was before all the stuff that you said in the beginning about me on the academic medicine side. Who also have an understanding of the Healthcare space and where we're going. There are venture chairs who also come with other experiences in startups that may not be from Healthcare, but that bring deep knowledge about a specific space. So I'd say experience and humility is important and a willingness to partner.

Justin Steinman:
Excellent. So you said that Redesign has started up roughly 50 companies. How many of those have you been involved in?

Lesley Solomon:
So I have launched six companies at Redesign. There were a whole bunch more that I worked on... Not a whole bunch, but we'll call it three or four more that I worked on that that never got funded. So I worked on them at this early diligence phase and then when we pitched them, they didn't get greenlit, which is okay. That's important, right, because we only want to move things forward that we think can be successful and will have an impact. So yeah, six companies.

Justin Steinman:
I'm going to ask you an unfair question, which I love to ask. I know you love all your children equally. Which of the six is your favorite and why?

Lesley Solomon:
I can't do that. All right, if any of my CEOs or teams are listening, I love you all the same. But I did have a board meeting today for Iron Health and I'm actually wearing an Iron Health fleece, right now, so they are top of mind. Iron Health was the first company that I really took through from beginning to today. So worked on that earliest stage and spent a lot of time developing the concept, really working through it with the team at Redesign, before we were in a place that we wanted to pitch it and get it greenlit.

Justin Steinman:
So what does Iron Health do and what's so exciting about it?

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, so Iron Health is a women's health company. The important thing about Iron Health, and the thing that was really important to me about it was, given the amount of time that I had spent in Healthcare and academic medicine, it was important to me to innovate inside the Healthcare ecosystem, not as a standalone outside of it. So what we're doing at Iron is partnering with existing OB-GYNs to extend the care they're able to provide for their patients. Many women have an OB-GYN, but have chosen or just don't have a PCP, a primary care provider. So Iron Health, in particular, we wanted to make sure that women were being supported through primary care, hypertension management, behavioral health, menopause care. So what we created is a virtual care partner to an existing OB-GYN clinic that now allows OB-GYNs to be an OB-GYN and refer care for behavioral health and all of the other things that I mentioned to Iron Health, as a partner, so we can support the women in their practice to get the care they need.

Justin Steinman:
Interesting. Do you have any sort of percentage of the number of women who have an OB-GYN, but not a primary care, that you came through as you were researching the company?

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, I do have that number and it's so far back in my head that I don't... There's no way that I'm going to come up with it now, but it was enough that we wanted to build a company around it. The two things that stood out to us the most was that a majority of the women that we interviewed, and we did a survey of 10,000 women, a majority of them said that they had OB-GYNs, but not primary care providers. So that's the one data point majority, so you take that for what it is. Then the second piece that stood out for us is that OB-GYNs were burnt out, like all doctors are these days, but they were burnt out because they were being asked to be a three-in-one provider. So they were being asked to be primary care, OB-GYN and behavioral health, and they just didn't feel like they were giving their patients the care they wanted. So that's what we're doing now, is partnering with... We're now in Tennessee, Kentucky, and Michigan and a lot more states to come, so it's really exciting to see it working.

Justin Steinman:
That's actually really cool. I might not be very good at math, but I do think majority means more than 50%, so I think that's a good compelling market size. I like that. I like that a lot. So you said something interesting though, about Iron Health, that I want to come back to. You said you felt it was important to innovate inside the Healthcare ecosystem. Regular listeners of our Podcast, think back a couple episodes ago when we had Sasha, our favorite surgeon on, and Sasha was advocating that it was important to innovate outside the Healthcare ecosystem. In fact, he was very passionate about it. So I want to ask you, why is it so important to innovate inside the Healthcare ecosystem?

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, I am going to have to go back and listen to that one. So I'm going to get really passionate about why it's important to innovate inside. After working for eight years at Brigham and Women's Hospital and four years at Dana-Farber, Healthcare is set up a certain way. We realize, in the United States, that it's not perfect. It's far from perfect. There's so much that needs to be done. But because of all of the different ways that incentives are created and payments are done and operations, all the different elements that exist out there that make Healthcare as complex as it is, that if you're going to innovate outside of the system, you're not connecting in with the day-to-day of how Healthcare works. So my goal in building the companies that I work on at Redesign is that we have to recognize that this is how Healthcare is delivered in this country right now.
By partnering in inside, that we can start to create opportunities to move things outside, potentially, right? So like with Iron Health, we're using existing OB-GYNs, but our virtual care is not inside the system. It's through those partnerships, through those attachments, that we create innovation and we help the inside of Healthcare see that there are ways to change, there are new ways of doing things. That's been the most fun thing for me to see, is to be having conversations with people deep in the Healthcare space, on the provider side, who they come to the meeting and they're like, "This is not my expertise. I do not know about technology. I don't know anything about the virtual care. What I do know is I'm not giving my patients the care that they deserve. If you can help me do that, then please do." But that's where patients get their care now, so why would we do something outside? It doesn't make sense to me.

Justin Steinman:
Interesting. I'm not going to sit here and parrot back and debate Sasha. Sasha's perspective was that it was so broken and there are so many competing interests and self-preserving interests inside the Healthcare ecosystem, that you could never fix it from the inside, but he is a little bit of an iconoclast.

Lesley Solomon:
I think that's the exact same reason why you have to fix it from the inside, because there are so many people who are holding onto the way it was, that you have to bring those people along with you.

Justin Steinman:
All right. Well, note to Joel, our producer, that maybe we'll have Lesley and Sasha on for a debate sometime. I'll just sit here and moderate, inside versus outside the Healthcare ecosystem.

Lesley Solomon:
Love it.

Justin Steinman:
Oh, I love it. All right, so I'm really obsessed and really interested in this whole ideation and how you're coming up with the ideas for these companies. So, I mean, there are literally thousands of problems in our Healthcare ecosystem here in the United States. How do you decide which ones to pursue? Do you have an investment thesis? Is there an area that you're passionate about? How does that work?

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, it's really interesting because... Just me, so I'm one of 11 venture chairs. My companies range from, like I said, women's health to payment intelligence, clinical trials, longitudinal care management, pharmacy enabled care and employer health benefits. So that is almost every point of Healthcare that you could imagine. So I don't think we have a specific thesis. What is really important is that there's either white space or that we feel strongly that the concept that we create, that eventually will become a company, can do it better than the way it's being done today. That's one of the most important things. Like your friend Sasha said, there's so many things that are broken, that there's just an endless list of opportunities to improve it. We just need to find a big enough market for each of those concepts, that it makes sense from an investment perspective and from a scaling perspective to make it work.

Justin Steinman:
So what's the most successful company that Redesign has started? Have you guys got anybody acquired yet, or IPO'd? How do you define success, even? Help me with that.

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, so we have had a couple of exits and I can go into some of those in a minute. But success, for us... It's funny, because every once in a while, I'll talk to a CEO candidate, and I do spend a lot of time interviewing, or I'll talk to others in the ecosystem, and they say, "What's your exit plan?" It's really important to not start with an exit plan, right? It's important, especially in Healthcare, that we start with a goal to impact care. That impact could be seen across any of the stakeholders. It could be on the payer side, it could be on the provider side, on the employer side, on the patient side, in pharma. Now we're starting to work with at the clinical trials company. So it's important that we start with, what is the impact that we want to have? We want to grow a company that is going to continue to have that impact and scale it, over time. If we create a really great company, that does amazing things and makes money, then it's successful in my mind.

Justin Steinman:
Okay, so then you said you had some of the companies that did exit. Talk to me about one or two of them, that gets you excited.

Lesley Solomon:
So one of our first companies was a digital hearing aid company, called Lively. Lively was exited in 2021, December 2021.

Justin Steinman:
Good time to get out.

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, exactly. No kidding, right? But, so that was really exciting for us. It was exciting because I had just joined in July of 2021, so to see after being there for six months a company was already exiting.

Justin Steinman:
That's cool. So let's talk about the flip side. How do you know when a company's not going to make it and what's that process like?

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, look, we're tackling innovation at scale, which is hard enough. But on top of that, we're doing it in Healthcare with, as I said earlier, all the complex relationships, incentives, regulatory structures, that come with it. There will be companies that, despite all the work we and the founding team does, may not make it. That's just the reality. But here's what we do from day one, in terms of governance to make sure that doesn't happen. From day one, so, like I said, as soon as the CEO is in seat, I move into a board role. So we have board meetings three months in. As soon as the CEO's in seat for three months, we have monthly board meetings where we meet with our CEOs and strategy and finance team and any members of their team. We really spend time looking and learning from operating companies that have gone before them.
That's actually one of the coolest things that I love about Redesign Health, is because we've had 50 companies we have so much that we have learned from every company that we've launched. So as we've gone from 2021 to '22, and now in 2023, we have had a lot of learnings that we've tweaked and changed our model along the way, so that's what we do on our side. The other thing that's fascinating about having 50 companies is you now have 50 CEOs in seat. We've created an amazing community of CEOs who now just connect together. Leaving Redesign out, they can have communications and they can talk about, "What did you do, when this happened?" Everyone says being a CEO is one of the loneliest jobs and what we've done at Redesign is make that to be not the case.

Justin Steinman:
Got it. So that's really interesting that you've got that community of CEOs and I think that's really... I have heard it. My boss who's a CEO says, "It is a lonely job," and he seeks out other CEO peers, so I like that about what you guys are doing there. But I'm sure, as you said, not every company makes it. You do innovation at scale, somebody is bound, or some company is bound, to fail. Is there a company that you guys started that didn't make it, that you're just like, oh my God. I can't believe this company didn't succeed? Tell me about that.

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, so I'm going to present to you a story of-

Justin Steinman:
Oh, I like stories.

Lesley Solomon:
One that's personally important to me. So I'm a mom of a son with severe food allergies and asthma. As a result of that, I founded something, a nonprofit, outside of Redesign many years ago called FASI, the Food Allergy Science Initiative. As anyone who knows me can speak to, I've been passionate about food allergies for a long time. So when I came in to Redesign I said, "We're going to start a food allergy company." They were like, "Okay, great. Put it into the hopper. We'll go through it, we'll visit it." So I'll make the long story short, which is, I'm now on my third allergy concept at Redesign. So the first one was not the right one. The second one was really amazing and I was really excited about it, except we didn't have the business model that would make money. So now I have a concept, which is super early-stage, so I can't tell you too much about it, but I'm finally working on one that, fingers crossed, within a month will be funded and it's in the allergy care space.
Not just food allergy, so food allergy, environmental asthma. But I'm really excited that... It's really about just sticking to your goals and knowing when to cut, right? We knew those first two times around that it wasn't going to be a business that was successful. I was bummed out. Everyone felt bad because they knew how badly I wanted to create this allergy company, but you can't just build it to build it. I think that's one of the things that a lot of founders, out there in the world... Had I been a founder, out on my own, not inside Redesign, I might've started that and it could have been a total failure. It could have taken a lot of money and time and effort and emotion and three years in would've failed. So what's really important about the Redesign process is that we don't just start any company in Healthcare. We don't just start a company because we're excited about it.
There's a lot of founders out there, who say, "I'm so passionate about this. Here are ten other people who are passionate about this too, so I think there's a market and I'm going to build a company here and raise money." Now maybe in 2021 that was okay, but now you can't just start a company because you think that there's a need. You need to actually do the diligence and the research and the stakeholder interviews to realize that there's a need. That need has to be matched with a business model that will sustain that as a business and scale over time. So anyway, kind of answering your question but not 100%. But it's the ones that got away twice and now third time's a charm and I'm feeling good about this one.

Justin Steinman:
I like the iterative nature of innovation. You're not always going to get it right the first time and that's okay, right? But I like the fact that you keep trying. First one to fail. There's the second one, wrong business model. Hopefully, your third one will be successful. I like that. We'll have you back and come talk to us about it.

Lesley Solomon:
Okay.

Justin Steinman:
Talk to me about, more broadly, what areas of Healthcare excite you today? What do you look at and go, oh my God, if you're an entrepreneur and you're thinking about starting a company, this area is just totally broken? Or what's rife? Where are the dynamics are changing? What gets you out of bed in the morning when you think about Healthcare innovation right now?

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, I mean, Healthcare in general gets me excited because I love taking my skills and knowledge to do things that are going to impact people's lives. But I can't say I would be super excited about just any company in Healthcare. There's a lot in pharma and biotech that's not totally working. Obviously, there's a lot of expenses there and there will be ways to cut down on those expenses, as we innovate in that space. Obviously, I have to say AI, but AI is not a space for me, AI is a tool, so you still have to solve real Healthcare problems with real services and models and platforms, using technologies.
I do see that the Healthcare employment space, people... Everyone I talk to at a health provider, at Healthcare systems, they're just struggling with talent. So how can you think about supporting providers with a new model for talent? That's an area that I would get excited about. Then longevity, right? Longevity, I don't know if I have time to work on that one, but hopefully there's a lot of people out there working on it that are going to help me, because I'm getting up there.

Justin Steinman:
Don't start worrying about your own longevity, just yet. I'll tell you one that excites me and I'd love your thoughts on it is I've got this theory around that we don't understand the true cost of Healthcare, because you and I, as individuals travel longitudinally through the Healthcare system, but Healthcare is delivered vertically and you track costs vertically. So you think about you track the cost of your care based on the location of the doctor that you're seeing, but if you're a cancer patient, the only person who really understands the cost to treat you is your insurance company who's paid all the bills. But they're paying what's actually billed, not the actual cost of the treating of you. So I'm really obsessed like this longitudinal and vertical transfix-ation, if you will.

Lesley Solomon:
Yeah, it's really interesting, one of my company's Anomaly is in the payment intelligence space. We are working on the prediction of claims denials. So we're working with providers to help them know what claims are going to be denied before they're denied. That's the first product in a whole suite. To your point, one of the biggest challenges that needs to be solved out there is the fact that people aren't speaking to each other. What's shocking to me is that Healthcare providers and payers, they talk once a year when they're negotiating their rates for the upcoming year. There's no communication about, "Hey. What if we did this? Or, "What if we worked on this?" Or, "What if we changed this? Or, "What if we actually shared knowledge and allowed each other to benefit and grow from that knowledge?" The problem is the incentives are not aligned.
My point is, I would love that. I would love if you could create... One of the things that I've always said, actually, and I would love your perspective on this and maybe it's in the same space, is I would love to be able to start a new hospital today, from scratch and in the middle of nowhere and have to figure out how it's going to sustain itself, by... Maybe it becomes a payvider, right? How does it buy drugs to give to its patients? How does it engage its patients? If you could create it from scratch, say, what would it look like and how would you do things differently? Maybe that will get you to the answer that you're looking for around this.

Justin Steinman:
That is a massive capital investment, I will tell you. Way beyond my level of capital, to be able to fund. I think Geisinger's trying to do that a little bit. They're in the middle-of-nowhere, Pennsylvania, but they've got a long legacy behind them.

Lesley Solomon:
Well, so it's interesting, you went right to capital, right? But maybe this new hospital isn't actually a hospital, at all. Maybe there's no building. Maybe it's just a virtual hospital that is taking care of its patients and managing... So you have to remove all the barriers of what you thought before and then figure out, if I was going to create a virtual hospital today, what would that look like and who would I need to partner with? You'd need to partner with the surgery center because you can't do surgery if you're virtual.

Justin Steinman:
Interesting. I almost want to make some sort of joke about redesigning health, but that's probably too on the nose. I apologize, Lesley, for that joke, I can't help myself. So last question for you here is, we started off the conversation talking about invention and innovation, and you've got a lot of experiences. What do you think the biggest roadblocks to innovation are and how do people overcome them or how do we overcome them?

Lesley Solomon:
That's such a good question. I think it goes back to the old comment when you're brainstorming the and versus the but. So the how might we re-envision a hospital and do it in a way that doesn't take down our economy? I don't know. The barriers to innovation, I think, are mostly in our minds and if we could let ourselves just explore and try. The other piece that makes it really hard, I would say, back to Sasha's discussion with you the other day, you can't innovate in a vacuum. So identifying those incumbents that you could partner with, to show that your crazy idea may actually work. Partnering in the Healthcare system is really hard and I'd say that's probably one of the biggest barriers to innovating in Healthcare, that just negotiating with a Healthcare system to try something could take 12 months. By that time, your company's out of money if it's early-stage. So how do you identify those incumbents who are willing to partner with you and try new things, because they know that they need to?

Justin Steinman:
Interesting, I like that. What a way to close up. Lesley, thanks for your time today. This has been a lot of fun.

Lesley Solomon:
Thank you so much for having me. It was really great fun on my side too.

Justin Steinman:
Awesome. For all our listeners out there, thank you for listening to Definitively Speaking, a Definitive Healthcare Podcast.
Please join me next time for a conversation with Bill Moschella, the founder and CEO of Populi, a healthcare commercial intelligence company targeting providers and delivery networks.
Definitive Healthcare recently acquired Populi, and I've invited Bill to come on the podcast to talk about the challenges facing healthcare delivery systems and providers. I promise, he won't try to sell you anything. But Bill has founded and sold two companies that serve the provider market, so he's got some really unique insight into both the provider market and what it takes to start a company that serves the provider market. I hope you'll join us.
If you like what you've heard today, please remember to rate, review, and subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your Podcasts. To learn more about how Healthcare commercial intelligence can support your business, please follow us on Twitter, @DefinitiveHC, or visit us at definitivehc.com. Until next time, take care, stay healthy, and remember it's never too late to innovate.